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you like explosions, we like shoes, get over it
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William Goss
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

laura wrote:
There was probably a bit more drama in the film just to tie everything up, but the show is most definitely satirical.


Fair enough. I can't vouch for the show - I'd seen a few eps ages ago - but the film was more drama than comedy, and even then, more gag-driven than satirical in nature.
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Rob Gonsalves
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(1) Would it be acceptable to write "women who just don't get it and that's because they are women"? If not, why not?

(2) Are the terms "girls" and "guys," when referring to adults, of equal weight? Why do some women past their teenage years refer to themselves as "girls"?

(3) To what extent is "literally going nuts" when one sees a cute purse or Star Wars toys a case of arrested development?

(4) Is it possible that a male reviewer could "get" Sex and the City and still not care for it? For that matter, is it possible that a female reviewer could "get" Sex and the City and still not care for it?

(5) Is it demonstrably true that movies with abundant explosions which all "guys" like get a free pass from male reviewers, getting a 90% or above fresh rating on Rotten Tomatoes, for instance? If so, cite examples.
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laura
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(1) Yes, I think there are lots of "guy movies" that guys get and girls don't. I give guys the benefit of the doubt instead of tearing them apart and calling them silly. Girls are also more accustomed to guy movies than guys are to girl movies, just because the majority of movies out there have a male director's perspective.

(2) Don't know.

(3) I make a "squeaky" noise and get really excited. If there are lots of purses, I feel a bit overwhelmed. Same way with clothes. I'm not much of a shoe person.

(4) Yes, but I don't think it's possible that people who "get" the movie will conclude it's sexist and shallow. I say time and time again it's okay if you don't like it, but what are your reasons?

(5) I will cite examples when I am not at work, but you're still missing the point. I'm not talking about the general critical opinion, but the nature of the criticisms. While a guy may say a Michael Bay movie is horrible, he's probably not going to say it is revealing a horribly glib state of the male population or encouraging them to go downhill. He may hate the movie but may not be morally offended by it. Think about video games!
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laura
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him: http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=45676551&albumID=1918437&imageID=34615771

Her:
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=45676551&albumID=1918437&imageID=34615069


ha
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laura
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and I was very specific about why I didn't like Juno!!! For the record.
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David Cornelius
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Rebello



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see how SATC is any different from Transformers or Iron Man in the way it resonates more with fans than an outsider reviewer. I think the mentality going into any movie for a reviewer is to want it to be a good movie. Nobody wants to waste two hours watching shit (although that does tend toward funnier reviews).

The criticisms I've read on this site and elsehwere are that SATC is overlong, the main characters aren't likable and there is little dramatic arc in the story.

Those are valid criticisms you could have with any movie; I don't see how it's sexist or ignorant to dislike a film on those grounds. If a film's bad, it's bad.
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laura
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you ever think I wasn't referring to eFilmCritic reviews?
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Rob Gonsalves
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

laura wrote:
While a guy may say a Michael Bay movie is horrible, he's probably not going to say it is revealing a horribly glib state of the male population or encouraging them to go downhill.


Nope, because that goes without saying.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that a Michael Bay film shouldn't be judged that way. That's my point.
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William Goss
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

laura wrote:
I agree that a Michael Bay film shouldn't be judged that way.


Actually, it's not that it shouldn't be judged that way. It's that it's more of a given.

Bad Boys II is morally reprehensible and pretty materialistic to boot.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's my point though. It's the MESSAGE that matters. But with Sex&TheCity, because there's the presence of girl talk and shoes, it's easy for guys to overlook that principle.

That's what I'm trying to say. A Michael Bay movie is comparable to Sex & the City -- Bad Boys II is not.
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Rob Gonsalves
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I meant that saying a Michael Bay movie is revealing a horribly glib state of the male population or encouraging them to go downhill is redundant, since it goes without saying.

Perhaps the reason for the male backlash against SATC is less sinister than might first meet the eye. As you say, the majority of movies are made from a male director's perspective (ironically, the writer and director of SATC is male). Might it not be possible that some of us male reviewers so seldom see good movies, or any movies, made from other than a straight white male perspective that we are starved for a good one, and react accordingly when one like this (or the upcoming remake of The Women) seems so much less than it could be or should be?

I have seen and actively sought out more female-made, female-starring, female-oriented movies than I can count. Some were great. Some sucked.

I personally sat out the SATC movie because I've never seen the show. If it lacked the baggage of however many years of episodes, and if it didn't come with the weight and hype of a particular cultural phenomenon with which I am uncomfortable, I probably would've given it a day in court.

An Obama supporter was asked whether he was simply supporting Obama because he didn't want to support a white woman (Clinton). He replied, "Oh, I'll happily support a white woman. Just not this white woman."

I'll happily support a movie about women. Just not these women.

Oh, and Bad Boys II is a Michael Bay movie.
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laura
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Perhaps the reason for the male backlash against SATC is less sinister than might first meet the eye. As you say, the majority of movies are made from a male director's perspective (ironically, the writer and director of SATC is male). Might it not be possible that some of us male reviewers so seldom see good movies, or any movies, made from other than a straight white male perspective that we are starved for a good one, and react accordingly when one like this (or the upcoming remake of The Women) seems so much less than it could be or should be? "

No. Definitely not. Haha. Nice try though!

Again, I don't think you should LIKE or DISLIKE this movie. My frustration is with certain reviews that attack the morals of the characters/film, without any real justification except that they can't accept that girls have their own petty preoccupations just like guys do and there's nothing threatening to humanity about that.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, let's put it a new way. Say there's a movie about a group of guy friends, and you could have the main themes be anything really -- but let's say they're relationship-focused. Now let's say that each character is fleshed out in its own way but they are all bonded by their love of of cars, or video games, or planes, or pot. Any kind of hobby or interest or object like that. We may like or dislike the film based on genuine reasons, but we're not going to overlook what happens in the movie because we can't get our minds around the fact that they like cars; we recognize that has a benign character quirk, no?
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Rob Gonsalves
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That depends will there be a scene in which one of the characters shits his pants?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

laura wrote:
"No. Definitely not. Haha. Nice try though!

Again, I don't think you should LIKE or DISLIKE this movie. My frustration is with certain reviews that attack the morals of the characters/film, without any real justification except that they can't accept that girls have their own petty preoccupations just like guys do and there's nothing threatening to humanity about that.


Why should men like the things that only women like?

Also, if a movie just concentrates on women's kinks rather than coming up with an actual story to tell, while it maybe amusing to some women ('cause I doubt others like to be stereotyped), and hardcore SATC fans, you'd be hard-pressed to find men liking it.

Now I haven't seen the movie, and this looked to be a rather interesting debate. Excuse me for barging in but this key part of your argument I just don't understand and find it highly contradictory, because you say that your point is not bashing people for not liking the movie, but yet you go and bash film critics for pointing out these glaring stereotypes that about in the movie (yet from all the reviews, their main point of contention not only is the unlikeable/shallow/stereotypical characters, but mainly the lack of a good storyline). So, in other words, what I'm seeing here is that you bash critics, male critics that is (you didn't even bother to check what fellow female critics or film fans had to say, check IMDB, and you'll see plenty of females who also either hated or disliked the movie), simply for not liking the movie because of this. Yet at the same time you say you don't mind people disliking the movie.

Just don't understand it.

Plus, while i guess it helps to have seen the show before the actual movie (I enjoyed The XFiles movie actually, and I'll admit, due to the fact that I'm a huge fan of the show... until season 6 that is), this should ultimately be a moot point because there will always be the other part of the audience that has no knowledge of the TV series, so for them the movie has to stand by its own merits alone, and if it blows, then sorry, it just blows.

Ok, that's my bit, you guys can carry on...
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Rob Gonsalves
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slyder wrote:

Just don't understand it.


That's because you're a guy and you don't get it. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Gonsalves wrote:
Slyder wrote:

Just don't understand it.


That's because you're a guy and you don't get it. Rolling Eyes



OMG! Of course! How could I forget??!!!! Shocked
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, Laura is one angry broad.
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William Goss
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rebello wrote:
Damn, Laura is one angry broad.


She may believe that remark alone settles her case...

But that deserves both an Shocked and a Laughing , good sir.
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MP Bartley
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the modules I taught at university was popular tv genres, and I always used SATC to talk about the representation of women.

One question I always aksed, and it always got really interesting responses, was how would we judge the female characters if they weren't hugely successful, affluent, well groomed women?

Example: In one episode, Samantha has a delivery at her office. The guy delivering it is hot, so she gives him a blow job there and then. Now, the general reaction from the classes was that this was funny/naughty. But what if she wasn't a PR giant? What if she worked in a supermarket, wasn't particularly turned up well and gave head to a delivery guy dropping off some stock she's seen for the first time? Would our opinion of her be different?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, then she would be presented as either skanky or pathetic. That she is not portrayed as such in the show/film says much about the classist fantasy at work here: You can do what you want if you have money, and it will be seen as liberating and funny.

What if this were a rich man taking a just-met delivery woman out back for a quick shtupping? He would rightly be seen as a sleazeball, not to mention using his white, moneyed privilege to use and discard a human being for sex. That a woman does it does not magically make it acceptable and amusing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I absolutely do not care if you like or dislike what women like Slyder, I'm not a big action movie fan -- for instance. But I'm not morally offended and annoyed by big action movies. I don't think they imply something shallow or superficial or stupid about men. That's the difference I'm talking about.

Peter uses the word "leg spreader" in his review for instance, well if the SATC gals are "leg spreaders, then every single sexually active woman on the planet is -- every SATC main character is in a MONOGAMOUS relationship, 2 are married, 1's engaged, and the other's been in a 5-year relationship. I also read the word "skank" being thrown around in one review. Exactly how are they slutty by having sex with their husbands and boyfriends???

Or the word shallow. As I've said before, I don't consider a guy materialistic because he likes toys and gadgets, I just consider it natural. But when a woman enjoys her handbags or shoes, they are shallow!

It's the double standards that bug me; a guy can say he just doesn't get it, but if you don't get it, don't start labeling SATC with all these unjustified terms.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having seen (and royally hated) the show but not the movie, I can't get too involved here, but if, as my wife informs me, the movie is enough like the show to count, I'll go out on a limb about this:

laura wrote:
But when a woman enjoys her handbags or shoes, they are shallow!


Only if that's pretty much all there is to that person. The Carrie Gang aren't shallow because they like sex and shopping - they're shallow because they like nothing else. Laura, I'd bet that if you met these women in real life, you'd find them obnoxious, shallow, and useless.
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